SIR Podcast
SIR Podcast
Episode 7: David Kalinowski, Proactive Worldwide
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SIR Podcast host Tony Cañas (Insurance Nerds) talks with David Kalinowski (Proactive Worldwide) about the importance of Competitive Intelligence and the value of SIR.
Learn more at www.sirnet.org.
Hello and welcome to the SIR podcast. This is your host, Tony Kanyath, uh, from Insurance Nerds and Top Ad Recruiting, and today I have with me David Kalinowski, found president and co-founder at Proactive Worldwide. David, thank you for joining us today. How's it going? Uh hey Tony, thanks for having me. It's going fantastic. My pleasure, my pleasure. Um, so so you've been very involved with SIR. Uh you were telling me before we started recording, four years on on the board, two years as treasurer, uh now part or you just rolled off of the executive advisory uh council. You've hosted webinars, like more than one webinar for for, or recently hosted a webinar, uh, and you recently wrote a book too. So there's a lot to chat about here. So, first of all, thank you for your service with SIR. And uh what what what is Proactive Worldwide?
SPEAKER_01Proactive Worldwide, uh, we started just over 30 years ago now, so I was I didn't have the gray hair that I have now uh back then, but we're a strategic intelligence agency based outside of Chicago that helps organizations uh stay out in front of what's next in their industry. We work in a wide variety of different verticals, but really it's about helping organizations to win and to make better informed decisions that ultimately allow them to gain and maintain a competitive advantage. Uh, I've had the privilege over the last 30 plus years of working with uh just over 225 of the Fortune 1000 organizations, so beyond just insurance, although that is a pretty significant sector for us, and you know, during that time been able to really kind of um you know bridge the gap between research and analysis and insights and implications, and ultimately being able to link all that to strategic decision making.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and link it taking notes like a banshee. Link it to strategic decision making. Okay, fantastic. Um how how is research involved in in your it sounds like it's all about research. Well, uh how how how does research play into what you guys do?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'd say that research has been pretty much the foundation of everything we do. Um you know, when we uh are doing a a you know B2B voice-to-customer study or war gaming or scenario uh planning workshop or competitive benchmarking or deep profiles, uh whatever it might be, research is is the heart of all of it. And so capturing that knowledge that exists, uh whether it's through primary and secondary research, mostly primary. You know, there's a lot of things that are publicly available. There's no unique advantage to having that. Everybody has access to that, right? The the value comes by converting that into unique insights and understanding, you know, the how and what around those insights and how that links ultimately to why executives should care about what you're learning and what we should do about it. So I think research really is critical to uh to lead to actionable strategies that companies take and what they actually implement.
SPEAKER_00Uh a thousand percent.
SPEAKER_01Uh so at one point you you you were you were saying when when you said you're you guys do primary research, uh, and then it sounded like like like you were saying that that research that that's not unique to you is not that valuable, but no, that then then you went into like the real value comes from turning into into insights and absolutely, absolutely uh yeah, I think being able to have conversations with individuals out there, whether it's key opinion leaders, competitors, customers, suppliers, regulatory bodies, you know, um uh trade analysts, whoever it is who has knowledge on the topic that you're looking at, and be able to then triangulate all that, verify, validate what they're saying, and then tell the story about what's happening out there. And um, that's really invaluable these days. And it's capturing content that you know AI can't produce.
SPEAKER_00AI is getting better and better. Uh, but but but but yes, I I agree. The AI can can help you dig into the research, it can help you do the research, it can help you summarize the research. Ultimately, there's something very human uh about taking what AI gives you back and and giving it that smell test, especially and and and not only that, but but like and how do we communicate it to the board kind of thing, right? Uh and how how do we apply it to this particular industry? Yeah, I I I agree completely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there's still content out there that you're not going to find in print, and that's where the primary intelligence comes into play. If you, Tony, are a customer of a particular insurance organization. Only you could tell me your sentiments and how you believe and how you feel about that service and the product. And and sure, there's tools now for agents and avatars, but I still find the the human interaction uh is more critical. Um, but I also think that you know um there are some table stakes with AI to to capture certain content and maybe even start to do some analysis of it when you have truckloads of data out there, but the the ability to then communicate that knowledge and then to formulate decisions and then to get executives to actually act requires the judgment and the personality and the influence to actually get them to move. It requires wisdom.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, yeah, AI uh is smart and will get smarter, but wisdom is a very human thing, and it takes time to develop.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we're still, at least for now, commuting human brain to human brain right there, competing, right? So um, but groups like SAR are critical though, and uh you know I've seen research evolve over the years, and you know, associations like SAR are essential for those that are in a research or insights or analysis capacity.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Um and let's get back to that question. Uh but but first, uh, how has your role changed over your career? Because you've been with been running the same company for a long time. So I'm guessing at first it was uh an army of one, and now it's bigger than an army of one, right?
SPEAKER_01So we're definitely bigger than one. Well, it was actually an army of two to start. Um my business partner at the time, Gary Mag, who's since retired, uh, and I, you know, kind of uh started the business on our bootstraps. You know, when I started in research, the internet didn't exist. So in 1990, when I got into the field of competitive intelligence, um, you know, you would do your research by calling the target target company if they were public, requesting the annual report, waiting two weeks for it to show up in the mail, and then flip to the back pages to the executives, and that's who you'd start a calling. You know, there were no databases, there were no websites to go to. Uh, you'd go to the library and looked out things on microfilm or microfiche, right? And uh, if you've really had a budget, you would have a clipping service that would send you a manila folder every three weeks with articles from newspapers and magazines, and that would be you know your research. Otherwise, it was getting on the phone and talking with people, and and that still holds true today. So it's evolved you know quite a bit since then uh with the tools. I I tell people now you guys got it easy for research, uh, you know, um, but they really don't because uh people are a little more savvy now about what to share, what not to share, right? Um, but ultimately I think you know my role has evolved from being a researcher, being an analyst, a project manager to business development, to um, you know, an advisor, a facilitator, and a and a coach, you know, a trainer uh over the years. So a little bit of of everything. Um, but yeah, and leading proactive worldwide for now 30 years, we've grown our our staff to you know several several dozen individuals who are probably one of the largest firms in the market, you know, relative specifically to to market intelligence.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Uh what what advice would you have for somebody that that's entering the insurance industry?
SPEAKER_01You know, I I think um insurance is kind of interesting because it's at the at that intersection of of risk and analytics and um uh you know customer behaviors, and whether your personal lines or commercial lines, it it doesn't matter. Um, and then long-term strategy. So there's probably three things I would think about. One is around you know um developing strong analytical skills. Um I think that again, as we talked about, AI tools are important, but they can't do the thinking for us. Uh, and I'd like to recommend for those out there, there's a book called Critical Thinking Um uh for Strategic Intelligence by Randy Fearson, P-H-E-R-S-O-N, uh, Critical Thinking uh for Strategic Intelligence. Uh, we have to make sure that we're continuing to understand, you know, how to connect the dots and tell the story and not just inform leadership, but truly influence them and the decisions that they're making. You know, I often Tony talk about, you know, we're not the nice-to-know business. You know, we gotta own the CI function to get our stakeholders what they need to know to inform decisions and then to influence decisions. Because if we're not, then why are we doing it? Why are we doing that? So that's the first one. I think developing those critical um thinking skills, analytical skills. The second is around um just making sure if you're newer into the insurance industry, you you really understand the whole ecosystem. You know, the carriers, the brokers, all the distribution channels, the reinsurers, the regulatory bodies that are that are at play. Um, I think as you have that 360 viewpoint, you become more valuable in what perspectives you can share. And then the third one probably is to just keep building your network, build your professional network. Um, again, groups like SIR are critical to doing that. I certainly have, um, in the 14 years I've been affiliated with SAR, have developed tremendous, not only friendships, but um professional relationships that have helped me in my career, and I think I've been able to at times help help others in theirs. But that would be the three things, you know, uh really enhance your critical thinking and your analysis capabilities, uh, linking the the content to the so what and the now what, uh, second around, developing an understanding of the whole ecosystem, and then third is you know, enhance your professional network.
SPEAKER_00That is fantastic. I I run chadwith20.com where I give free career advice to insurance professionals. Sometimes it was designed originally for for like entry level uh to help you know the claims people or or the call center people grow into underwriting or grow into a better role. And I've been doing it for a long time nowadays. Sometimes I get calls from people who are who are making 500 grand a year, right? And and and I've never sat in those seats, but I have visibility because of my day job as a recruiter and how involved I'm in the industry, I have visibility into what careers look like in insurance at all levels. And you have a different perspective you're able to share, and and that's valuable. Precisely. Uh, and and I agree with everything you just said, absolutely agree with everything you you you just said. Uh by the way, it's okay if you don't agree with me either. Oh no, I I believe me, I will I will call you out where we disagree, but no, I I agree a thousand percent with with with all of that. Um all right. Uh how did you find SIR? The reason this podcast exists is because I was surprised at the fact that after 15 years in this industry and in and being super involved in many associations, many organizations, and having gone to hundreds of insurance conferences, I had never heard of SIR. And then I went to the conference last year and I was like, this is amazing. The people are amazing. I ended up joining the organization the last day of the conference and saying, Good, you guys need a podcast, and here we are, right?
SPEAKER_01But how how did you find out about SIR? Yeah, it was a colleague in the insurance sector that had talked about it in 2012, is when I went to my first event. And it was really uh an individual at that event by the name of Don Feint, who at the time I believe was sit with Cigna, who I struck up a just a great conversation, uh wonderful lady, super smart, uh, big contributor over the years uh to the insurance industry and to SIR, and kind of pulled me in a bit more. And then from that, I got to meet folks like Rick Marketti from the Hartford and Jen Evert and American Financial Group and uh Ron Zeza when he was at Blue Cross at the time. And you know, as you meet these individuals, I'm sure there's many others I I've left out of there, but um, you know, I was initially introduced by a colleague in this space. And when I went, I just felt a really strong connection because uh I didn't find these folks to be, you know, arrogant or have big egos. They were all there to learn and to share knowledge, and as a firm that then became a larger sponsor and an exhibitor, and then I would often speak at the events, uh sharing my own knowledge, um, you know, it certainly came back to help us with you know generating business opportunities. Um, but really um the mentoring, the teaching aspect that happens there is really spectacular. Um, and as you mentioned, I I had the privilege of to be on the board for four years and two years as its treasurer. And I tell you, um, like everybody, you know, time and energy is our biggest resource. And so I don't have a lot of the extra time. Um, but this is one area where I definitely raised my hand and wanted to volunteer and what I wanted to be part of it. I wanted to be part of the movement and to help continue to make sure SAR was growing, succeeding, and continuing to attract members that can add value.
SPEAKER_00I I feel the exact same. Uh I have literally done hundreds of insurance conferences. My day job is basically going to insurance conferences, covering them for insurance nerds. Uh, and I I I um you know promoting my the my podcast through insurance nerds and promoting my recruiting firm, which specializes in insurance. So I go to a lot of conferences that I have for many years uh of all sizes from Insure Tech Connect, 12,000 people, to Dynamic Farm and Branch. Uh my 100 people and everybody knows each other. Uh and SIR felt special. It it it it really did. It it had the content was amazing. So the speakers were amazing, the people were Uber friendly. And in my experience, larger conferences have better content uh up until a limit. The insurrect conference especially get to the point where they start selling those speaking spots in the con and and you kind of anyway. Uh uh smaller conferences uh can be awesome because because it's easier to meet people.
SPEAKER_01Uh and when you talk large, you're probably thought talking the big, you know, yeah, type of things that are yeah, versus you know, we're talking about 200, 200 plus here, and I find the intimacy awesome because um there's a community, and you do when you when you show up on day one, you see people that you have gotten to know them over the years. And and even I'll tell you, as a sponsor, as an exhibitor at these events, um, you know, people don't walk down and have blinders on, like, oh my gosh, they're gonna talk to me. It's like yeah, they actually stop and want to understand if you have a solution that can help them or not. And maybe you do, maybe you don't, you know. But I really find people are there wanting to learn from each other. People are open, um, I think just very down-to-earth and friendly. And uh, but that's a great place. Again, anybody new to the insurance, no matter what vertical area, whether it's PNC, commercial, specialty lines, insurance, um, uh health insurance, doesn't matter. You gotta be there to to hear what's going on in the space and to to build your network.
SPEAKER_00I I I I agree. And and small conferences sometimes have the disadvantage, especially if it tends to be the same people goes back year after year. Uh it can be harder to penetrate the group when you first visit. Not for me, because I'm an extreme extrovert, but for most people, uh, SIR was so friendly.
SPEAKER_01Like just that pre-date workshop, right? Which um, you know, this year I'll be leading a pre uh pre-conference workshop for 90 minutes, but right after that, then is the first timers um gathering. So it's a great way, like you said, to welcome people who don't know anybody really yet, or few people, and people are quick to make introductions and to find like-minded folks for you to connect with in your space, uh, whether they're competitors or not, just to be able to continue to again build relationships.
SPEAKER_00I I agree a thousand a thousand percent. What what a great organization, I think one of the great hidden secrets of the insurance industry, uh, and there are other organizations I'm very involved with. I'm I'm a CPCU fanatic, I'm always pushing everybody to get their CPCU and become involved in the society. Uh, but yeah, there is something really, really special about SIR. Um so we talked about your company, we talked about SIR. Uh, so you're an author. I would love to at least touch on a little bit. And for the listeners, uh, David has generally agreed to come on my podcast uh to talk about his books. Uh so subscribe to Propus and Risk. Um so yeah, tell tell us a little bit about the books.
SPEAKER_01Well, I threw I have three different books. All of them at one point did reach a best-selling status. Um, but the most most recent ones you know that I have is called one's called the the CI-driven CEO. It's written as a story. That was 2011 I published that. And it's really the chief competitive officer gets uh elevated uh and tapped on the shoulder to become the interim CEO when the CEO didn't use the intelligence to make the right kind of strategic decisions, and uh and then the story goes from there. But the whole idea is if you think about it, Tony, so many CEOs, you know, they they climb through the ranks, right? And so if you have gone through the marketing channel, then you tend to be about you know promoting the business and branding, it's about marketing angle. If you are a sales-driven CEO, then it's about generating revenue and growth and top of, you know, if you are uh an RD-related uh individual, an engineering background, it's about innovation and you know, you know, so why not have CEOs that have a competitive intelligence background who have a grand understanding about all the different elements of the business and can bring that dynamic into the so that's one of my books, but um the most recent one is called The The Sacrifice Paradox, How to Navigate Life's Choices and Trade-Offs. That's the one I'm actually more proud of because it applies to the masses, not just anybody. And it really centers around the key question of what if the key to success isn't about doing more but giving up the right things? And I have 101 uh stories in there from people I've met over the last six years that it took me to write that book, uh, and then a reflection question at the end of each one of those for people to really think about um those trade-offs you're making. And are they intentional? Are they unconscious? You know, uh what type of trade-off are you making? And how do you know if it's the right trade-off? So uh that one I really enjoy. Um, I've been talking with a lot of students at universities about that because they face a lot of those challenges right now, uh, of what to do and what to take and balancing social with preparing for their future and and all those things. So yeah, but thanks for raising those. Uh um I uh enjoy writing and uh you know where I get the time.
SPEAKER_00That sounds super interesting, the the the idea of uh of something's gonna get sacrificed.
SPEAKER_01Uh y'all do it, right? Whether you're a homemaker, uh a parent, a two student, a teacher, a business executive.
SPEAKER_00Uh on the on the career advice side, uh, and this is this is an idea from from Manager Tools, which is a uh podcast that I that I love, but I often tell people, uh especially, especially if they're like early in their career and and they're overwhelmed, right? Your typical a student that that comes into an insurance company and and they are overwhelmed by the amount of stuff on their to-do list, and and I I tell them, hey, in white-collar employment, the way this works is you're going to get more stuff than you can do. And if if you're willing to put 70-hour weeks, the company will happily take them and you won't necessarily get rewarded for them. You might learn a lot, but you won't necessarily get rewarded for them. Uh but ultimately you're gonna have to learn to prioritize.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to look at, I mean, there's a framework I have in that book to help people decide what's the impact on themselves, what's the impact on others, and what are the short and long-term benefits and consequences of the trade-off you're making. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it's not. Sometimes you choose work over family, sometimes you don't. You know, it just depends on what your purpose is and where you're driving. And as I link that back to like SIR, I think you know, for those looking to evolve their education and their knowledge in the insurance space, you know, I've yet to run across a better association. That cares deeply about its members and willing to go out of their way to help others so they are able to really advance their own careers appropriately.
SPEAKER_00I agree with that. I would be remiss if I didn't mention uh get your CPCU and join Rice, Rice and Insurance Star Executives. Rice is free. But yes, I I agree with you. Especially if your job is research adjacent, join SIR join SIR, even if it's not. Like I'm a sales guy. And I I find SIR to be super, super beneficial. And I'm a sales guy already in the middle of my career. And I wish I had found SIR much earlier on in my career.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you mentioned too the content quality. I think the balance of uh practitioners and solution providers is really solid. Uh, the more practitioners that are out there talking about their career experiences and working with stakeholders and what works, what doesn't work, um has really had a huge impact on the audience members, the registrants, because now they can relate and take that back and make it applicable. I find, especially with such as I know I teach, but with many others, uh it's not theory-based. It's it's based on what's really happening in the marketplace. So I would really encourage anybody that has anything to do with the insurance sector. Like you said, it doesn't matter if you're in sales, you're in strategy, or in risk, you're an actuary, you know, come to the events that that SAR hosts um to learn something new and different, uh, or add your expertise you know into the mix.
SPEAKER_00I would agree with that with that completely. Uh David, it's been a real pleasure. Real pleasure. Uh pleasure is mine.
SPEAKER_01I I appreciate the conversation.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I look forward to to have a deeper conversation about the books. Um yeah, uh, thank you so much for your time today.
SPEAKER_01Oh, excellent. Well, thank you so much. And again, last off for those that are out there, you know, be an influencer, not an informer. You know, we got to really make sure, and that might require you developing some new skill sets, but I think we got to get to the point where you're not just providing background reading, but you're actually providing insights that will cause those executives to do something with what you're providing. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day.